04. 1984-1985 - THE BEGINNING OF GUNS N' ROSES

According to Raz Cue, who invested in L.A. Guns and became their manager [Raz Cue, "The Days of Guns, & Raz's", 2015, p. 149-155], he had tried to get Axl to sing for LA Guns previously: While managing L.A. Guns, Cue would bump into Axl. Cue tried to get Axl to join L.A. Guns as their first singer, but Axl refused. Only a few weeks later when Axl's current band, Hollywood Rose, had broken up and Mike Jagosz had been fired from Pyrrhus, and after some hesitation, did Axl join the band. Part of the reason Axl decided to join LA Guns was that Tracii had told Axl the band would become more blues-based and less metal [Raz Cue, "The Days of Guns, & Raz's", 2015, p. 159].



Tracii, on the other hand, would claim it was he who got Axl to join LA Guns:





Cue would also speculate that Axl hadn't been eager at first to join LA Guns:



While in LA Guns, Axl recorded vocals to a cover of Elvis' Heartbreak Hotel:



This recording was then recorded over:



The rift between Slash and Axl had been bad, so when Axl called Slash and asked him to help Tracii with the riff for 'Back Off Bitch', Slash blew him off [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007].

Tracii and Slash had a rivalry going which made it hard for Marc Canter to follow LA Guns:





There would be some confusing regarding who was the first singer in LA Guns. In 2018, Cue and Rob would discuss how hard it is to remember and Rob would defer to Cue's memory and recollections:

On October 5, 1984, LA Guns' had its first show with Axl as its new singer and opened up for London with Izzy and D'Priest. LA Guns played the songs "Anything Goes," "Back Off Bitch," "Shadow of Your Love" (all songs from Hollywood Rose), "Heartbreak Hotel," and "Jumpin' Jack Flash" [Raz Cue, "The Days of Guns, & Raz's", 2015, p. 165], which would later be released or played by Guns N' Roses.

According to Marc Canter, Axl only played two shows with LA Guns:



Duff, Slash and Marc Canter were all present at the October 5 show. Duff would see Axl for the first time:





During the show Axl would rip apart a poster of London. Robert John, who was attending the show, would claim there was bad blood between Axl and D'Priest over a girl:



When asked about any good storied of Axl, D'Priest would indeed mention Axl fucking his girl:



Presumably, this is not the same girl that Izzy had slept with [see earlier chapter].





Tracii Guns, who played in LA Guns with Axl, would also mention the feud between D'Priest and Axl but not mention the girl but instead claim D'Priest had detuned his guitars at the show:





This is supported by comments from Axl from stage:

LA Guns did not work out for Axl, though, and Tracii would claim he was fired by their manager, Raz Cue:






But according to Cue, Axl wasn't fired but quit the band himself, allegedly after a violent episode at the Rainbow:




When asked about this, Rob Gardner would suggest Cue's recollections were probable the most accurate:



Marc Canter would also suggest that Axl wasn't fired when he stated that Axl "split" with LA Guns:



So according to Cue, Axl quit the band, although it could be that Axl cooled down and that he was then fired by an angry Cue as they were driving home to Cue's apartment.

Axl, in an interview in December 1986, would claim he deliberately got himself kicked out of LA Guns by Tracii:



While in LA Guns, Axl had quarreled with Tracii over musical direction and was frustrated over Tracii being hard to write songs with [Raz Cue, "The Days of Guns, & Raz's", 2015, p. 208]. Axl would also go on to say that "the rest of the band [= LA Guns] [Tracii] had at the time […] just didn’t seem to have the drive, and it fell apart [Cream, September 1989].

In 2018, Cue would be asked about whether Axl quit or was fired by him, and again deny that he had been fired:



In 2011, Mike Jagosz would attack Axl vehemently and say that he had sucked while in LA Guns and that their producer, Chuck Rosa, had insisted they got him [=Jagosz] back in the band:



Raz Cue would later discuss Jagosz' animosity towards Axl:




Regardless of how it went down that Axl left LA Guns, the result was that on October 31, 1994, Axl and Tracii found themselves sitting on Cue's couch, discussing what to do.

With Mike Jagosz as the new singer for LA Guns, the band recorded their first EP featuring songs where Axl had come up with the lyrics and vocal melodies:



Axl had also worked on the songs Bloodshot Eyes and Cold Hard Cash [GN'R Central, March 2018].

On Halloween, October 31, 1984, two young men were sitting on a couch in an apartment in Hollywood. They were discussing the future. The two men were Tracii Guns (age 18 at the time) and Axl Rose (age 22 at the time). Tracii was the lead guitarist in the band LA Guns and Axl had until earlier this very evening been the singer in the same band. Now Tracii and Axl discussed what to do.

Their decision was to form Guns N' Roses:










A couple of years later, Axl would claim that he was the one who came up with the name together with his old friend Izzy Stradlin (age 22 at the time) and not mention Tracii as part of this origin story. Also, according to Axl, the foundation for the new band happened earlier when Axl was still singing in LA Guns:



This is likely not entirely correct. It is quite possible that Izzy and Axl, old friends from Indiana, would want to play together in a band, but it seems reasonable that Tracii would have been part of coining the name by providing the "Guns" to Axl's "Rose". Axl would also acknowledge Tracii's part in the formation of Guns N' Roses in later interviews:




In 2008, Axl would likely suggest that the concept of the band originated before the name came about:



So it seems likely that the start of what would become Guns N' Roses did happen earlier than that Halloween evening of 1984, but that putting the Guns N' Roses name to the growing idea of the new band happened that night. This also exemplifies the fact that bands often don't just suddenly originate, but evolve from other bands and band constellations, that they gradually form as the right band members come together at the right moment in time. This is very much the case of Guns N' Roses and the various precursor bands, like Hollywood Rose and Road Crew, and band members will be discussed in future chapters of this story.  

Marc Canter, a friend of Axl and Traci's, would suggest they started the band some weeks later, around December 1984:





In the band's first years the band name was written in various ways, Guns & Roses, Guns and Roses, etc. In late 1987, Duff would explain the correct way:



According to a 1989 article, Axl would explain the name:





A conundrum here is that Axl and Tracii had disagreed over musical direction while playing together in LA Guns [for more information on Axl and Tracii in LA Guns, see later chapters]. Why then would they want to form a new band together? One explanation could be that they intended Guns N' Roses to be musically different to LA Guns. Or perhaps they just admired each other too much, despite any musical differences that might have been? Axl shed some light on this in 1989:



Tracii would later describe them as being "connected at the hip":



Or perhaps Guns N' Roses wasn't intended as a band at all, but as a record label for releasing singles from the bands Hollywood Rose and LA Guns, as Tracii stated in 2010:



In his great book, Reckless Road, Marc Canter, who was a friend of Guns N' Roses, would state that "Guns N' Roses originally began as a side project of Axl's and Tracii's" [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007] confirming both of their involvement but also the somewhat down-prioritized status of the band in its very beginning, which makes sense considering the other bands the guys were involved in around that time.

As far as we know, not much happened with Guns N' Roses in 1984 after the two guys on the couch first came up with the name. It seemed to have been an idea, a concept, but not much more.

But Hollywood Rose wasn't entirely over and on December 31, 1984, the band played a final show. This show had been booked by Izzy after he quit London [see earlier chapter]:




But Slash couldn't do it so Chris Weber was recruited back into the band:







According to Marc Canter, the show made Izzy and Axl want to do more together, but likely with Slash instead of Weber:




The full lineup was Axl, Izzy, Weber, Darrow and Rob Gardner from LA Guns [Appetite for Distortion, July 30, 2017].



After this final show with Hollywood Rose in late 1984, Weber joined different smaller bands in Hollywood and New York before enjoying success again with U.P.O.:



Talking about the formation of U.P.O. and how Vicky Hamilton was involved in getting their record deal and the release of their first record, No Pleasantries (2000):



The second U.P.O. record, The Heavy (2004), didn't fare as well as the first:



After the second U.P.O. record in 2004, Weber needed treatment for his addictions:



And would eventually end up working as the treatment center and becoming a therapist himself:



And talking about how he coped with the success of Guns N' Roses and that he is humble about the small role he played in what would eventually become Guns N' Roses:



When asked about how much he earns from royalties from GN'R songs:

Road Crew never became a success and Duff would quit after about 6 weeks [Kerrang! March 1989].





One of the band's problems was that they couldn't find a singer [Guitar World, February 1992]. According to Steve Darrow, who played bass in Hollywood Rose for a short while, Duff played in a power-pop band with a guy called Michael McMahon [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007], and this was likely after having played in Road Crew.

Marcelle Sirkus, a friend of Izzy, Slash and Axl, would mention meeting Duff when he was playing in the Michael McMahon Band:



According to Slash, he and Steven had a falling out before Duff left Road Crew, resulting in Steven quitting:

According to Raz Cue, in early 1985 an argument broke out between Tracii and Mike Jagosz, the singer in LA Guns, which resulted in Tracii firing Jagosz from LA Guns.




With Mike Jagosz gone from LA Guns, Axl - who was not a friend of Jagosz - spent more time with the band again after having quit/got fired in October 1984 [Raz Cue, "The Days of Guns, & Raz's", 2015, p. 195; see previous chapter for more information]. But Tracii and LA Guns had a problem: The band had one more gig already booked at the Troubadour for March 26, 1985, but they now had no singer. According to Cue, Tracii then asked if Axl wanted to do a one-off, one more show with LA Guns as the singer, and Axl agreed.



Tracii then made a flyer for the upcoming LA Guns show at the Troubadour with Axl on vocals:








Cue then claims to have suggested they'd do it under the "Guns N' Roses" name and that they'd also bring in Izzy [Raz Cue, "The Days of Guns, & Raz's", 2015, p. 197]:




This happened a couple of weeks before the March 26 show, so it must have been in early March 1986 [Raz Cue, "The Days of Guns, & Raz's", 2015, p. 198].

Tracii would later explain it as is LA Guns just continued but with Izzy in the mix:



From the following quote by Traci it is suggested Izzy joined Axl and Traci in Guns N' Roses first, and then they added Rob Gardner and Ole Beich (drummer and bassist in LA Guns, respectively) to fill out the band:



Izzy would later mention Axl asking him to "come back", which refers to Izzy having left their previous band Hollywood Rose:







This indicates that to Axl, Izzy was an important part of the future of the band. Izzy was the first piece to be added to the puzzle. Axl would talk about knocking on Izzy's window and how the band in a sense was meant to include Izzy even before the name had been coined:




Desi, Izzy's girlfriend at the time, would also mention Axl knocking on Izzy's window and that at a time Izzy was about to give up his band aspirations and leave Los Angeles for Indiana:



Interestingly, Axl would later also mention he already at this stage thought about bringing the lead guitar player Slash into the band when asked if he had another alternative band name:



As mentioned above, when Axl knocked on Izzy's window to have him "come back", the band Izzy was thinking about was Hollywood Rose where he had played with Axl before he quit to join the band London. It is likely Izzy considered this new band to just be Hollywood Rose with a different name and perhaps some new members, and this exemplifies the fluidity of the bands in the rock scene of Hollywood at the time: they evolved and changed, slightly morphing from one band to what could be called a different band, and sometimes the band names didn't mean as much as the players who were in the band. It wasn't so much about what the band was called, but who else were playing there.

When Guns N' Roses played their first show in March 1985, it thus consisted of members of Hollywood Rose who had joined members of LA Guns -- or the opposite way around -- to play under the new band name Guns N' Roses as coined by Tracii and Axl. The band was Axl Rose on vocals, Izzy Stradlin on guitar (or "Izzy Stranded" as he referred to himself back then), Tracii Guns on lead guitar, Rob (Robbie) Gardner on drums, and Ole Beich on bass. Ole and Rob were bandmates of Tracii in LA Guns, Axl and Izzy came from Hollywood Rose (although as explained above, at the time Izzy had left that band and joined London and Axl had had a stint as the singer in LA Guns). These first members of Guns N' Roses formed two factions, with Axl and Izzy being old friends from Lafayette, Indiana, and Tracii, Rob and Ole coming from LA Guns and having a more heavy metal approach to playing music.

Rob, who had played with Axl in Hollywood Rose and LA Guns previously [see earlier chapters] would mention how Axl was in this period:



Rob would also talk about Axl and Izzy and that they had the drive to become successful:



Rob would also disagree with the notion that since they came from Lafayette, Indiana, Axl and Izzy wouldn't be updated on what was happening on the music scene in Los Angeles:



Being well-known musicians in the rock scene of Hollywood meant that Guns N' Roses got a kickstart. People were curious about this new constellation.



Tracii would later talk about their vision for the new band and Izzy's importance on deciding what the band should sound like:




¨

Describing the pictures above:





The band now had a few weeks to rehearse together and prepare for their first show in March 1985. The first rehearsal took place at Willie Basse's Wilpower Studios:



Tracii would explain what music they played and how he and Izzy worked out the guitar parts:



And Rob would talk about his contributions to the song writing process:



Rob would also mention how the songwriting changed from LA Guns to Guns N' Roses and single out Izzy's importance in shaping the new sound of the band:



But this lineup was not to last long…

In March 1985 the newly formed Guns N' Roses consisted of Axl Rose, Izzy Stradlin, Tracii Guns, Ole Beich and Rob Gardner. With a show coming up at the Troubadour on March 26, the band was rehearsing and preparing. But for the band's third rehearsal at Willie Basse's studio, they struggled to get hold of Ole:




Tracii would suggest Ole left because he didn't enjoy the music they played:



Cue would comment on Ole leaving:




In September 1987, someone in Guns N' Roses would refer to Ole as the "dumb schmuck bass player" [Rock Scene, September 1987]. This was probably Izzy since Axl was likely not present at the time when those words were spoken and none of the other guys (Slash, Steven and Duff) were in the band together with Ole (although they likely knew him from the Hollywood music scene).



So Ole was out of the band almost before it started. The "guy" Izzy knew "across the street" and could replace Ole, was Duff McKagan.

Steve Darrow had actually been present when Izzy met Duff in late 1984:



It has also been said that the band found Duff by placing an ad in a local magazine [Kerrang! March 1989], although this is more likely the ad Slash and Steven placed to recruit a new bass player for their band, Road Crew earlier [for more information Road Crew, see later chapter].

Tracii would remember Izzy suggesting that Duff should replace Ole:








Talking about joining Guns N' Roses and indicating things weren't good in the beginning:



Despite Duff's condescending tone in the quote above from 1990, probably when he wanted the media to focus on the current incarnation of the band, in 2021 he was more gracious towards Tracii and Gardner:





Raz Cue would mention that he and Ole went to one of the show in 1987 when Guns N' Roses was opening for The Cult:



Sadly, Ole had tried to put together a band with Steven and Slash before they joined Guns N' Roses:



Tragically, Ole died in 1991 from drowning in Copenhagen, Denmark. He had previously survived a suicide attempt in Los Angeles [TV2 Underholdning [Denmark], April 8, 2016].

Duff would later discuss meeting Izzy and how that resulted in him joining in on a band's rehearsal in Willie Basse's Wilpower Studios [GN'R Central March 2018]:






And rehearsing for the first time with Axl, Izzy, Tracii and Rob:




And specifically his impression of Axl:



This version of how Duff met Izzy and ended up in Guns N' Roses is also confirmed by Raz Cue [Raz Cue, "The Days of Guns, & Raz's", 2015, p. 199].

Cue would also put the date of Duff's first rehearsal with the band to be the same as the KPFK interview:



If Cue's recollections are correct, this would mean that Duff joined the band on March 23 with the rehearsal taking place in the evening, and that the radio interview happened just a few hours later, at about 2am in the morning of March 24 (because the date of the interview is known). They would also immediately record version sof their songs to be played in the interview.

Marc Canter would say they played one show with Ole Beich before he left, but this is likely not true:







Traciii would recollect meeting Duff for the first time at this rehearsal:



And Tracii would talk about working with Izzy:





In mid-to-late March the band did their very first radio interview with KFPK FM Los Angeles. This interview came just hours after the band has been in Willie Basse's studio recording early versions of the songs Think About You, Don't Cry and Anything Goes. During Anything Goes, Axl can be heard introducing Duff as a new guy. The band members also say they are going to release a picture disc EP with these songs as well as Heartbreak Hotel, although this EP was probably never released. Tracii's mother recorded the interview and handed a copy to Cue [Raz Cue, "The Days of Guns, & Raz's", 2015, p. 200].

Cue talking about how the interview happened:



Duff, who had been part of the rehearsal just hours before the interview took place and where they recorded the songs that was played during the interview, was absent from the interview because he had to get up early the next day for his job:

____________________________

The first Guns N' Roses show was held on the legendary West Hollywood concert venue The Troubadour on March 26, 1985, or Doug Weston's Troubadour as it was named back then. In 2017, Duff would look back at the Troubadour and the position it had in Hollywood:



This was the show that had originally been intended as an LA Guns show but had fallen apart when the singer Mike Jagozs left or was fired from the band [see previous chapter].





Although The Troubadour has maintained its reputation as a legendary Hollywood bar and concert scene even to this day, it wasn't necessarily very difficult to get shows there back in the 80s, as Duff explains below, but it was difficult to get shows at the coveted nights of Fridays and Saturdays when more people were out and about:  



Advertisement ad in L.A. Weekly for Guns N' Roses very first show on March 26, 1985, describing its recent founding:








The band made a flyer that explained the foundation of the band: "LA Guns, Hollywood Rose presents the band Guns 'N' Roses". The flyer had been made before Ole had left the band and still featured his name and image. The lineup of the band was thus Axl, Izzy, Tracii, Rob and the "new guy" Duff.



It is assumed the setlist consisted of songs from Hollywood Rose as well as more recent songs, including 'Anything Goes', 'Think About You', and 'Don't Cry', which would all later be officially released, as well as covers including 'Heartbreak Hotel'. These songs had also recently been recorded for the band's first demo tape [see previous chapter].

Tracii would suggest the band had sold about 80 tickets for the first show while Raz Cue would suggest 150, which was pretty good for a weeknight at the Troubadour, and the audience likely consisted of many friends of the band who were eager to hear what this new band would sound like:



Cue would reminisce over the show and mention that the marquee at The Troubadour still listed the band as "L.A. Guns":



In 2018, Rob would talk about the band's first show:

In April 1985 the fledgling Guns N' Roses played four shows around Los Angeles: April 11 at Radio City in Anaheim, April 24 at the Troubadour in Hollywood, April 25 at the Dancing Waters Club in San Pedro, and April 27 at the Timbers Ballroom in Glendora.

Raz Cue would mention how he had booked most of the band's early shows:



And explain why the band played shows away from Hollywood:






Notice in the flyers shown above for the April 11 and the April 24 shows that Rob's face is covered with a question mark for the latter of these shows. Cue would suggest this was due to some problem in the band at the time and would suggest this could explain Rob later leaving the band:



The photos in the flyer were taken by Chris Amouroux:



Talking about the attendance for the shows and how they kept on playing shows:







Duff would remember the April 24 gig at the Troubadour and seem to have a somewhat different recollection than Tracii on the sizes of the audiences:



And Alan Santalesa, former band mate with Izzy in Shire, would say he went to one of the first shows and that there were very few people in attendance:



Santalesa is not sure if it was the first show or not that he caught, but most likely it was the April 24 show since all accounts suggests there were very few people at this show while there was a decent turnout on their very first show on March 26. This also fits with Raz Cue's recollection that the very first show had drawn a larger audience because it consisted of supportive friends and people who wanted to hear what the new band would sound like.

Santalesa would also describe the show:



As can be seen from the advertisement in L.A. Weekly below, Guns N' Roses were playing in the middle of the bill (and the magazine had still not settled on a way -- or the correct way -- to write "Guns N' Roses"):





In 2018, Rob would look back at the first shows the band did fondly:



And talk about the setlists:

As mentioned before, Duff was not happy with the band already from the beginning:



And things were not working out for Duff as the band continued playing its first shows:







In early 1990 he would recall that his initial thoughts on Axl was, "He is good, but I don't know" but that this might have been due to Tracii and Rob being in the band [Kerrang! March 1990].

Marc Canter would seem to suggest Duff's real problem was with Tracii:



With Duff starting to lose interest and skipping a rehearsal, Axl called him up and insisted that he had to be part of the band and to give it another chance [Duff's autobiography, "It's So Easy", 2011, p. 59].

Interestingly, in 2017, Chris Weber, former member of AXL/Rose/Hollywood Rose, would say he had played bass with the Appetite lineup at some point:



If this is true, it could simply mean that Duff missed a couple of rehearsals, but it could also mean that Duff's initial reservations with the band didn't end when Tracii left.

In May 1985, Slash joined the band Black Sheep, fronted by Willie Basse [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007], the owner of Wilpower Studios where Guns N' Roses was rehearsing. Basse would remember hiring Slash:



Slash would also mention joining a "black funk band" in an interview in 1989:



It is unknown what band this was, but it could have been Black Sheep.






But Slash would not long last in Black Sheep, because already at their gig on May 31, 1985, would Axl, Izzy and Steven show up to convince Slash to join their new band, Guns N' Roses, and a few days later he did [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007].

Looking back and summarizing his pre-GN'R bands:






In October 2018, Willie Basse passed away at an age of 62 from cancer [Blabbermouth, December 17, 2018]. Slash would honor Basse's memory by performing the songs Come Together and Whole Lotta Love at "Celebrating Willie Basse: A Night of Music & Stories" on December 14, 2018, at Boardner's in Hollywood [Blabbermouth, December 17, 2018]. Slash would also comment on the death on Instagram shortly after Basse passed away:

_______________________________
In May, the band played two shows, at Radio City (May 11, 1985) and at Joshua's Parlour (May 12, 1985). The band probably played no other shows in May 1985 and it is likely that this is due to the band starting to fall apart with Tracii being fired from the band on May 13 [GN'R Central, March 2018]..

According to Raz, Tracii and Rob weren't as driven as Izzy, Axl and Duff:



It is also possible that Duff's qualms regarding the band [see previous chapter] resulted in less shows.



Duff was eager to travel to his hometown of Seattle to play shows in the region that he was so familiar with from his previous bands and played a mini tour of the north West Coast. The resulting tour would later be referred to as the "Hell Tour" [for more information on this tour, see later chapter]. But Tracii and Rob were reluctant to do the trip. Tracii and Rob were from Los Angeles and Duff didn't see the same hunger in them to make it, compared to the rest of the band members who had moved to Los Angeles and would do anything to succeed [Duff's autobiography, "It's So Easy", 2011, p. 59].







Talking about informing the band about his decision:



It is possible one of the reasons Duff wanted to do this trip, in addition to playing shows closer to his home and at clubs he had played before with his previous bands, was to get Rob and Tracii more involved in the band. A tour is a great way to either make or break a band. Duff could have thought about this is a lakmus test - now they had to commit or leave. As it happened, they quit.  

Marc Canter would describe the differences between Tracii and Rob and Axl, Duff and Izzy:





It is unclear who left first of Rob and Tracii. That Rob left the band before Tracii is supported by an article in Cream 1989 where Axl stated that Steven (drums) and Duff (bass) joined the band before Slash (guitar). In other words, that Rob (drums) was gone before Tracii (guitar).

Tracii would confirm that Rob left first in a later interview:



It is likely that Tracii would remember who left first of the two of them. That Rob left first is also supported by Steven [see quote below]. Still, Raz Cue and Slash would say Tracii left first [see quotes below].

Rob would ask Cue about this in 2018, and Cue would elaborate and suggest that the rest of the band just assumed Rob would quit after Tracii had quit:



Rob would comment on this:





In 2018, Rob would mention the feelings around abandoning LA Guns after having built up this band as one of the reasons he left Guns N' Roses:



But as can be seen from Rob's last point in the quote above, "other personalities" were also an issue. This would be substantiated by Cue who would suggest that the reason Rob's face was replaced with a question mark on the flyer for the band April 24th show [see previous chapter], was due to some issue:



Expanding upon the point about leaving LA Guns for Guns N' Roses:



Tracii would claim Rob's girlfriend had given him an ultimatum:



In 2021, he would imply that he had had problems with one or more of his band mates:



Raz Cue, who was sort of managing the band at the time, would imply it was a much bigger hit to the band that Rob left than Tracii leaving, and also confirm that Rob had a problem with some of the guys in the band:




Cue would also claim that the band did not anticipate that Rob would leave:



Rob would look back at his time in the band [see chapter below] and suggest that he was grateful for not staying in the bad and becoming an addict, and also suggest that the drug use in the band was part of the reason he left:





In addition to Tracii and Rob not wanting to go on the tour to Seattle, Marc Canter would indicate there was also some disagreement about a song they were working on at the time:



Raz Cue would support that Axl and Tracii butted heads over musical differences, like they had done previously in LA Guns. Cue also claims that Tracii was fired before Rob:





Tracii would say he quit the band due to having had an argument with Axl over the girl Michelle Young [more on Young in a later chapter] and from being annoyed by Axl's stage antics:








The quote above suggests Tracii left even earlier, after the show at Timber's Ballroom on April 27.

Tracii would also claim it hadn't been fun playing in the band in those days:




Later, Tracii would say he left for "the same reason Izzy left" [Kerrang! May 23, 1992], which likely pointed to Axl being difficult to be in a band with.

Slash would comment on this and point out many people had a problem working with Axl but also that Tracii didn't play the right type of guitar for the band, likely being mote metal-influenced than blues- or punk-influenced:



So in May 1985, the newborn band had lost two of its core members, the lead guitarist and the drummer.

Looking back, Tracii would be magnanimous about being replaced by Slash in the band he co-founded and which bore his name:





With Tracii being part of the band for such a short time that resulted in no official releases, it is natural to question what influence he had on the band. In 2004 he was asked how much input he had on the band:



Tracii would look back at having worked with Axl:







When Guns N' Roses blew up, Tracii would later express bitterness over the band being referred to as the "Gunners":



Especially the focus on music that was written when Tracii was still in the band would irk him:



In 2007, Tracii would again talk about Guns N' Roses and Axl:



Tracii would shortly after explain the MySpace comment:



In 2008 and 2010, Tracii would be asked if he had contributed much to any of the songs that made the band famous:




In 2010, he bore no grudges:



And as to having contact with his former band mates:



In 2019, he would describe hearing Appetite for Destruction for the first time:



And discussing how Slash was a better fit with Axl than himself:



And whether he keeps in touch with any of them:







Rob would also stress that there were no hard feelings between himself and his former band mates:



Talking about his life after leaving Guns N' Roses:

With Tracii being fired and Rob leaving the band [or possibly the other way around, see discussion previous chapter], a new lead guitarist and a new drummer was needed. According to Duff, Axl knew a couple of guys who could fill in: Slash and Steven Adler [Duff's autobiography, "It's So Easy", 2011, p. 61; Guitar for the Practising Musician, April 1992], which Axl knew from the previous band Hollywood Rose. Duff knew them too after having been the bassist in Slash's band Road Crew just weeks prior to joining Guns N' Roses [Kerrang! March 1989].






As discussed earlier, in 2008, Axl would say that he had wanted Slash in the band since it was founded:



Slash had recently started playing in the band Black Sheep, so Axl, Izzy and Steven went to a Black Sheep concert on May 31, 1985, at Wolf & Rissmiller Country club in Reseda, to convince Slash to join Guns N' Roses. A few days later he did [Marc Canter, "Reckless Road", 2007]. This implies that Steven was already in the band, but other accounts [see previous chapter] would suggest Slash got in the band before Steven.








Duff would also discuss why Slash wanted to join:



But the leader of Black Sheep, Willie Basse (who was also the owner of the rehearsal studio where the band had done its first rehearsals), was not as eager to see Slash join Guns N' Roses:



In 2017, Tracii would claim Izzy and Axl had tried to convince him to not leave the band as they were rehearsing with Slash, and that Tracii had asked them to change the name of the band when he was out:



Axl would later explain some of the attraction he found in Slash's guitar playing:






According to Slash, Steven came in after Slash:



While Axl wanted Slash in the band, Axl was not so sure about Steven and the drummers Nicky Beat and Chain were both considered as replacements for Rob over Steven:





Although Steven would not mention this competition in his biography:








Steven talking about Izzy:

According to Raz and Axl's quote above, Axl was eager about getting Slash into the band while Izzy was reluctant:



According to Cue above, Izzy hadn't heard Slash play before, or hadn't played with him before. This is likely not correct since Slash had joined Hollywood Rose in 1984 for a week before Izzy quit to join the band London, and it is likely they rehearsed together then.

This reluctance from Izzy's side can be inferred from later interviews that Izzy did:



According to Izzy, the feeling went both ways:




And Slash would confirm this:



Axl would also talk about this:



In 1995, after Izzy had left Guns N' Roses, Slash would continue to be dismissive of what Izzy had brought to the table:





But in his biography and in later interviews, Slash would be more complimentary towards Izzy and his playing style:




This paradox and shifting positions can be explained with Slash getting a deeper admiration for what Izzy brought to the table, but from a more cynical viewpoint it could also be understood in the context of Slash being more interested in a reunion of the Appetite for Destruction lineup from 2005 and onwards and hence being more gracious towards Izzy.

Slash was also not sure about joining a band with Axl again, having fought with him previously when they both played in Hollywood Rose [for more on this see later chapters].

In an interview in June 1986, the band would refer to the coming together of the Axl, Slash, Duff, Izzy and Steven lineup as when Guns N' Roses was formed [Los Angeles Times, June 1986], probably to distance themselves from the short-lived earlier lineups and to create cohesion as a band of brothers: Guns N' Roses was Axl, Slash, Izzy, Duff and Steven. But already in December 1986, Axl would point out that this was only one of the band's lineups: "This lineup has been together for two years" [Hit Parader, December 1986].

Still, to most fans, and likely band members, the real starting point of the band was when Slash and Steven joined, or at least it was a pivotal moment in the band's history. What happened before can almost be discarded as trivial and without any importance, although it is all connected, and one thing led invariably to the next, and many of the songs that ended up on Appetite for Discussion, GNR: Lies, and the Use Your Illusions had their start in the first lineups or even earlier in AXL/Hollywood Rose. Without Slash and Steven joining it is highly unlikely the band would have reached the same levels as success as they did, and the music they would have created would clearly have been different. It was a watershed moment and from this point on it only went in one direction, upwards, until it quickly started to fall apart, spectacularly.

After joining the band, the rest of the guys had to change Steven's drum kit:










Already at the first rehearsal sparks flew and the band members knew they were onto something great:

The new lineup played its first show at The Troubadour on June 6, 1985, only a few days after Slash and Steven had joined the band. The two other bands playing this evening were The Mistreater and Fine Line with Guns N' Roses opening for one of the other bands.

Advertisement in L.A. Weekly, who still hadn't figured out how to spell the band's name:





This show is the first Guns N' Roses show for which we know the entire setlist: Reckless Life, Shadow of Your Love, Jumpin' Jack Flash, Think About You, Move to the City, Don't Cry, Nice Boys, Back Off Bitch, Anything Goes and Heartbreak Hotel. Of course, all of these songs were either covers or original songs written before Slash and Steven joined the band, but the new guys immediately put their stamp on the songs, especially Slash's emotive leads.

















Dizzy Reed probably attended this show:

Raz Cue was a close friend of the guys in Pyrrhus and LA Guns, including Tracii [Raz Cue, "The Days of Guns, & Raz's", 2015, p. 110] and had gone to Fairfax high school with Tracii [GN'R Central, March 2018]. After receiving settlement money after breaking his neck in an accident, Raz got into the music business:



Cue had also met Izzy back when he played bass guitar in Shire. Later on Izzy would quit bass and Shire and start playing guitar in the band Rose instead, together with Axl [see previous chapter]. Cue went to see a Shire gig and Rose was on the same bill and that's when Cue met Axl for the first time [Raz Cue, "The Days of Guns, & Raz's", 2015, p. 137].



Later, Cue would be introduced to Slash through his friend Mike Jagosz, who was the singer of Pyrrhus/LA Guns, and Jagosz would later tell Cue that Slash had beat Tracii in a guitar playing contest at school a few years earlier (while both of them were beaten by another guitarist) [Raz Cue, "The Days of Guns, & Raz's", 2015, p. 140].

Using the settlement money, Cue had been L.A. Guns' manager and -- according to himself -- just kind-of continued managing Tracii's new band, Guns N' Roses, for a litte while. According to Cue in his biography, the band also referred to him as their manager, although managing at this stage was more akin to being a friend of the band and helping out with equipment and logistics:






Cue's brother, JoJo, was the band's stage manager and rented a room at Cue's place [GN'R Central, March 2018]. JoJo and Axl were friends and Axl would stay at Cue's place for extended periods [GN'R Central, March 2018].



Talking about Axl staying with him:



Cue eventually grew frustrated with Axl staying for free at his place and the band's circle of friends stealing his equipment to score drugs, and got in a fight with JoJo that resulted in both him and Axl being kicked out of the apartment [Raz Cue, "The Days of Guns, & Raz's", 2015, p. 217-218; GN'R Central, March 2018] and also stopped dealing with the band for a while:





With this Cue's semi-official management of Guns N' Roses ended.

Despite not working for them any more, Cue would still be on good terms with the band but eventually lose contact:



Talking about hanging out with Izzy in 1988 or 1989:



And Slash in the early 2000s:

One of the first places the band rehearsed was at the "Love Palace", a rehearsal studio owned by Nickey Beat (=Nickey Alexander), a drummer who would later join LA Guns [Patch.com, May 27, 2011]. This place was near Silver Lake, Los Angeles, or more precisely in Frogtown (near the corner of Gilroy and Ripple Streets) [Duff's autobiography, "It's So Easy", 2011, p. 69; Patch.com, May 27, 2011], which they rented for $6 per hour [Duff's autobiography, "It's So Easy", 2011, p. 69]. In June 1985, it had been rumored that Beat considered joining Guns N' Roses [L.A. Weekly, June 14, 1985; and see earlier chapter].

It is possible they decided to stop rehearsing at Wilpower Studios, owned by Willie Basse, and moved to the Love Palace since Slash had just been poached from Basse's band The Black Sheep.

Beat's rehearsal place was described as being in an "industrial wasteland" out by Dodger Stadium [Duff's autobiography, "It's So Easy", 2011, p. 83] and was a "small warehouse known as the Love Palace that doubled as a rehearsal studio" [Patch.com, May 27, 2011].



Rehearsals at this place likely started before the Hell tour [see earlier chapter] and before Steven had solidified his standing in the band as its permanent drummer. When Beat joined LA Guns at some point in 1985, the band had to rehearse elsewhere. It is likely they moved into Gardner Studios in the late summer of 1985 (see below), which would suggest that they rehearsed at the Love Palace from early June to later in the summer.







This is also possible the place Slash would later refer to:



Slash would later talk about them renting the rehearsal space for three hours at the time and how efficient they had to be with their time there:



Slash would also mention specifically that they worked on Welcome To The Jungle while at the Love Palace, meaning that they were rehearsing at this place at least prior to July 20 (when Welcome to The Jungle was played for the first time).

Raz Cue would also mention remembering them working on My Michelle while at the Love Palace:



Slash would suggest that the restricted time that they had for rehearsing at the Love Palace meant they wrote they music quickly:



Duff would later talk about the extensive rehearsing they did to sound good, and especially how he and Steven worked on the drums and bass:

The music scene of Hollywood in the 80s was vibrant and much more alive than it is today - it was a reason why Duff, Axl and Izzy moved to Los Angeles to make it as musicians. It had well established bands like Van Halen, The Beach Boys and Motley Crue but maybe even more important: it had many concert venues, promoters, and record labels just waiting to host or manage the next big thing in music. It was the place to be to succeed, but this also brought thousands of aspiring musicians to the city; musicians who fought over space to hang their posters, fought over attention from the A&R reps, fought over coveted places on the weeknight bills at the biggest clubs, in various and often-changing bands and constellations.  

Back in the 1970s, a punk movement had arisen in Hollywood (as a mirror to the punk movement on the East Coast) and in the 80s parts of it was slowly transforming into a hard rock scene - or reacting to it and becoming a more vapid glam rock scene.