2021.07.26 - Wasting Time with Jason Green - Interview with Gary Sunshine

Thanks to @Twinaleblood!



Transcript of relevant parts:

Gary Sunshine: And I was in LA and I had just, I think I auditioned for Tommy Stinson's... it was either Bash & Pop, one of those configurations, Tommy from Replacements and Guns N' Roses. And I didn't get it, whatever, but someone else did it.

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Jason Green: I want to get into Axl Rose and Guns N' Roses a little bit, because I know people are interested in this. You are considered Axl Rose's guitar teacher. I know you don't really like that term.

GS: Yeah, I mean, you know what, it was in Rolling Stone, I think, and a few places where I was called that. So yes, I did go to his house many times and was hired as a guitar instructor of some sort, but it wasn't really that. It was like sitting and playing and collaborating. He wanted to play, he wanted to up his game a bit. It was after Buckethead, I guess, during that time. Before that record, Chinese Democracy. They were working on that kind of, and he just wanted to be able to really know what he was doing when he was playing, because he could play, but he didn't know what he was playing, he has a great ear, just like he plays piano and everything. So I would go up to his house for an hour or two. I lived in like central Hollywood in a crappy little apartment. I would drive a car that barely made it up to, all the way west to the beach and all the way up, and then up Malibu, up a hill and hope that my, I think it was a Mazda station wagon that was not great, and make it up the hill to his house and park, you know, on a tennis court. He had a beautiful house. He was super cool with me and I really enjoyed those days. So we would sit and talk, we'd do music a little bit, you know, I would try and prepare stuff. Like he was writing, so I wanted to, you know, work on things like... You know, so we talked, I remember bringing like Radiohead stuff and Beatles things, just different things. I remember him saying, you know, I remember one day going something about, "Well, these are kind of blues licks," and he's like, "I don't really wanna learn blues." Which I understand.

JG: Yeah, you've said it before, Appetite and Guns N' Roses had done so much blues with Slash, and he was in that process of trying something different.

GS: Yeah, yeah, but I was just saying, "Hey, this is a foundation of something," but he knew this stuff. So we would play like Beatles things and a little bit of, I remember doing one of the Radiohead songs, and I'd bring the chords written out, and we would sit and just see changes, because I'm pretty sure what he wanted was to, you know, keep writing and thinking ahead, going forward. So I did what I could. I think it was a tough, tough thing because I didn't know what he really needed or wanted. And you know, I mean, I've given guitar lessons to, you know, people before, but then usually like straight blues things or basic things like that, you know, giving you little tricks and all that stuff, but he wanted a lot more. But it was great, you know, we had dinner at his house sometimes. And it was super nice.

JG: All right, let me jump in, Gary. Let me fill in some holes. So if a tech friend of yours, and maybe of Guns N' Roses, tells you that a high profile client is looking for lessons, right?

GS: Yes, absolutely. Called me from the music store somewhere. I can't remember his name. I'm sorry. It was his tech, and I think it was our tech at one point, or something like that. We were close friends of some sort.

JG: When do you find out it's Axl Rose?

GS: He had to have told me on the phone the next time. I said, "Yeah, I'm interested," you know, he must have told me at that point because I went to a studio where they were recording. I think it was soundtrack music and then Buckethead was on that recording, I believe. I don't know what it was. He played me Buckethead stuff when I went to talk to him and meet him. I had met him once before at the Cat Club in '88 or '89 back then then, once, very quickly, and I believe Riki Rachtman introduced me at that point. And then so this was me going to see him at this studio where it was him an engineer and maybe nobody else. And we sat and talked for a while and he played me some stuff. And he gave me the once over like, "Yeah, he seems like a good guy." And I got the gig, whatever it was.

JG: Did you see the chicken coop?

GS: Yeah, I went into the chicken coop. Where was that?

JG: Was that Rumbo?

GS: It had to be, that's the audition place, the rehearsal place, right?

JG: Yeah, I think that's [?]

GS: It had to be, because he took me on a tour. It must have been where they were recording. That's where he took me to the chicken coop.

JG: Right. Now, Gary, we gotta explain to people who aren't as hip on these odd things. Buckethead is a guy who wears a bucket on, a chicken bucket on his head.

GS: Like a KFC kind of hat, right?

JG: Yeah, and he wears a Michael Myers mask when he's not wearing that. And he's an amazing guitar player.

GS: An amazing player.

JG: But he's a character. He goes to Disneyland every day.

GS: He's an insane player. Yeah. And he recorded, all his amps and everything were in this chicken coop downstairs, which was just like a fenced room for his parts. A little eccentric.

JG: You had to be looking at this and thinking about your own career in thinking, "Man, I busted my ass in music and they're building this idiot a chicken coop."

GS: Yeah. I just need some guitar picks and strings, you know, help me out with something.

JG: Okay. Yeah. So this is Guns N' Roses is now at one of the most bizarre times in their career. I mean, yeah, and nothing makes sense. When you get hired, there's obviously money discussed, right? You're paid for this.

GS: I was paid. Yes. The company or the management team, whatever was sent, gave me a check every time, yeah. They said, "How much do you need?" I said, "Whatever," you know, I just wanted to do this thing. So they gave me, you know, something.

JG: Yeah, I'm sure it was okay. You're driving a station.

GS: It was okay. I would have done it for anything. I would have done it for nothing. It was good.

JG: It is an assignment, so to speak. I mean, you're there to work out ideas with him. Was he familiar with Circus of Power? Did that-

GS: Yes, yes. He didn't go into it too much, but he knew of us. He had said that, yes. And I don't remember too many details about that, but he did know - whether he was told about us, but he seemed to know, you know. I don't know if you hear his moaning, my dog is moaning outside. We'll just ignore him. So yeah... Shut up! And he-

JG: And is it just you and Axl or is there like help coming and going?

GS: It's just me, it's his house. It's just me and him.

JG: What kind of guitar?

GS: He had some people work at the house a bit and this and that, but he had a music wing of his house, kind of a separate area. And we would sit and play. I know there was a there was a big snake in the bathroom at one point, like a pet snake. I was remember taking a piss and like, "Uh-huh!" I remember a little details of stuff. I remember he was really nice. My nephew, I asked for like an autograph to send to my nephew and he did that. But I would never infringe on somebody's space. It was very hard for me to ask for anything. I mean, I wish I had photos of me and him, you know, doing this stuff, but no. But so, yeah, I did all that.

JG: It's probably one of the things he liked about you because you're not really easily impressed, so to speak. You know, you are who you are. And I think he probably saw that vibe. "This is not a guy who's gonna go tell everybody about me." I mean, we're talking about years later, but.

GS: Yeah, you know, when it came out, it might've been - he did an interview about End of Days or something or something where he mentioned me, Navarro played and all that stuff. And it said me "guitar teacher" somewhere. And I was getting calls from People Magazine and people like that and all kinds of places. And I said nothing to anybody. I was like, this is a private thing, I respect his privacy and I'm not gonna talk about him. I had a great experience with him. He's a very cool guy and very talented guy. That's what I know.

JG: So what kind of, there's a famous story that he like, he sent to Guitar Center and bought like everything they had. But that was the other, there's a story that he just said, like, "I want all the amps and all these guitars," and what, what kind of guitar was he playing?

GS: God, I wish I could remember. I have no idea. Is it a Strat, a [?]?

JG: I feel like he wasn't playing a Les Paul. That's too Slash.

GS: I don't believe it would be a Les Paul. And I don't believe it was anything odd. So I'm kind of picturing Paul Reed Smith or, I just don't know. I can't remember. That's weird. I remember he had like a guitar and a little rig and that's what we did. Probably a piano over there. Small rig.

JG: And would you bring your own guitar or you just play what you have?

GS: I'd bring my guitar. Yeah. My favorite Les Paul. Black Les Paul.

JG: How long does this go on?

GS: I think it was less than a year. I don't remember how it changed, but then I was invited to do a session or two with him for that End of Days. I was invited to do, he just said, "Hey, you want to do," I think, I don't know the timing because I, you know, not everybody knows that I auditioned at that time for the band as well. And somewhere in that, I ended up doing some sessions and it was for two songs, just really reinforcing stuff, because a lot of people were in and out, guitars were all over those songs, and people that were no longer in the band, so they were changing parts and stuff. So I went in, it was with him and an engineer, as far as I know, I don't remember anybody else. And I played on that song.

JG: Oh my God.

GS: Yeah, and Navarro wasn't there at the time, I don't think he recorded it yet, but I played some reinforced parts and heavy chords and different things throughout the song. And one other song, which I don't know what it is, but it may be on Chinese Democracy, but I don't know the name of the song.

JG: You thought it might've been I.R.S.

GS: I think I did think that at that time. And I don't remember and I don't even know. And somewhere I have like instrumental cassettes of that because that's what I was given. No vocals, here's a couple of songs. I was like, "Okay."

JG: Well, he did things differently, obviously.

GS: Yeah, yeah.

JG: This song, Oh My God, it's interesting. You hear some people really, really love this song. Then you have Slash, who says he went and saw the movie in the theaters and it reinforced his idea that he made the right move, leaving Guns N' Roses. So it's a weird song.

GS: It's a crazy[?] song.

JG: Yeah, it's weird.

GS: It's weird, but it's fiery and pretty energetic and interesting. It's different. I think it's just a crazy mix.

JG: If he wanted to do something different than Chinese Democracy, I mean, Use Your Illusions, he did because his vocals are under the music and it's lots of weird noises and things. And Robin Finck claims that he didn't play on it. Axl says he did, but Robin says he's not on it. And you're on a part of it and Dave Navarro is on a part of it.

GS: And who knows what? Well, I know Navarro's on there. I think I can hear him, but no, I don't know who's on. I know I'm on it and credited and was paid for it. So I know I'm on it somewhere. What they use in the end. I haven't a clue, but.

JG: Yeah, it's it has like seven writers or something, crazy, too. I think Paul Tobias, maybe.

GS: Yeah. Yeah.

JG: And Dizzy Reed wrote a part of it.  So it's one of the interesting things. It's funny is at that time, he's looking to do something different than Guns N' Roses. I think the average person would think the guy from Circus of Power doesn't fit. But at that time, you might have fit because nobody really, nobody might have fit too well, actually.

GS: Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, I know. I knew I probably didn't fit. But when Axl calls and says, "Hey, we're auditioning, would you like to come down?" I was like, "Yeah, sure." How could I not? In my head, I'm like, "I'll never get this. This isn't right for me." But I respected him and I'm very, very grateful to have been asked. So I played two nights down at the rehearsal auditioning. But back then, you didn't have video footage of every song they ever did and how to play these parts. And no one told me what parts to play. Tommy Stinson is the one who called me to talk to me about what to do. And he says, "Well, just learn both parts," or, "Just learn Izzy's parts." Something like that. It was very unclear. And I went in there more neurotic than I've ever been. And I'm pretty neurotic and I tried my best and it was, you know, a half dozen songs to play. And I sat in with them and Robin was there, Tommy. I can't remember.... You know, it bothers me that I can't remember which drummer it was.

JG: At that point, I'm not sure.

GS: I think Dizzy was there.

JG: Yeah, Dizzy.

GS: Yeah.

JG: Did Axl sing?

GS: No. Not during those. Del was there.

JG: Del James, for sure.

GS: Yeah, he was a big part of, you know, I knew him. But it was great because, you know, I was talking with Tommy Stinson about it too, you know. And of course, his friend was Richard Fortus. Who's a great player. He's right for the band. So in my head it was like, "Yeah, Richard's the guy." But I think all along, Axl was being smart and cool about things and giving an opportunity to others or whatever, but I think they had, somehow Richard had played with them already and he was the right guy. And I played okay with them. I was good. I would have been fine for it. It could have been interesting. You know what? Here's the weird catch to that. Sorry. I was called and told that good news or bad news, "You weren't, you know, Richard's gonna get it. However, we want to put you on a, you know, a thing," in case something doesn't work out, you know, be prepared kind of thing for a little bit of time. This was the scariest six months of my life because they were playing big shows and I didn't have a clue if I was gonna get a call to come down there. And I'm not that kind of guy that just plays everything and knows everything. I play what I know. So there was a period of time where I was "on call", in a sense, for a short period of time in case it didn't work out.

JG: Were you collecting your retainer for those six months?

GS: There was a payment, a friendly payment. It wasn't like a retainer thing. I asked for that, but that didn't happen. But there was like, "Hey, learn this, and here's this to learn it," and all that. You know, and it's so many years later, and anything I talk about like this, I mean with love and respect to those guys.

JG: Oh, of course.

GS: And you know that. So it was some kind of payment to learn this stuff and, "You never know what's gonna happen. Hang in there, you know, just in case," cause a lot of things were in flux in a way, you know, different people in and out. So for a while I was like, "Don't call me. Please don't call me. You're playing Madison Square Garden, don't call me."

JG: In the traditional sense of sort of the Appetite lineup, if they said, "Hey, you're going to play the Izzy's parts, that'd be one thing."

GS: I would love that.

JG: Yeah, yeah. I think it would have fitted.

GS: Yeah, that's kind of what I was supposed to be in a way. But Richard was more than that, because he's a pretty hot player. So that became a different thing. But had it been that, I would have worked on it. But I was a little lost, like "What should I do?"

JG: They had three guitar players at one point and sometimes three guys playing one solo. So talk about a bizarre, you know what I mean? But it was a different time. So how do you, did you lose touch with Axl Rose altogether?

GS: That's probably the last I talked with him, I think. Maybe a short time after, but not much since then. Cause I never, you know, they weren't running around, but they actually coming to this area, you know, in this next tour, I might see about going to see him. I haven't seen them in so long. And I'm not, you know, when you, you know, some people have connections or whatever they have and they call them up, you know, "Hey dude, can you get me in?" "Hey dude, you know anything?" I never do that. I can't do it. I can't bring myself to do anything like that. "Hey, can you get me in on it?" I just, it's hard. So, but this is one time I might make a call.

JG: Yeah. Well you should. So we talked about all the experimental times and chicken coops, but they've got it together now and they're playing great together and it's the way it should be.

GS: They're great. Those guys are terrific. And Frank, the drummer is terrific. I knew him in New York a little bit.

JG: Yeah, I know the New York guy.

GS: Yeah, you know. So yeah, there's good things there. I really would love to say hello and go see them.

JG: Yeah, well, I think you got to, let's hope that there's a show to go to with the way life is not.

GS: That's true.

JG: Guns N' Roses is not the unpredictable part anymore.

GS: No, no, they're more predictable than the rest of the world. Yeah. And I love Slash, he's an incredible guitar player.

JG: Who would have known that Slash goes on to be, you know, one of the top guitar players in the world? He really is.

GS: Yeah, he really is a great, great player.

JG: Kids are so inspired. He's the Eric Clapton to a younger generation or Jimmy Cade, you know to a younger generation

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