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Brooklyn. And other States.

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Brooklyn. And other States.

Post by FromHell on Wed Sep 26, 2018 9:01 pm

Well, Hell's bells, Margaret.

“Contracts,” “NDAs,” er, I mean, “gag orders,” the mechanics of Slash’s divorce, AC/DC fairy tales, “vaults” of “finished” material pushing twenty-two years controlled not by the master rights holder (Universal) but by Red and his live-ins—all “power” and control narratives advanced by one Partner’s associates that'll be doused for scorching by irrefutable fact in this thread. Trust me.

And yet, rumor has it, that Propagandaville persists in perpetuating the power play in the prior paragraph. To an extent, anyhow. Word is out, so I'm told.

A refresher for followers and newcomers alike, or if you will, a foundation: LiveNation—and its insurers—is Boss. Universal (Vivendi) is Boss. Slash and DMoney are Boss. They controlled Original Gn’R assets from NYD ’96 until Red, handing out legal equivalents of IOUs upon which he was sued, folded just prior to NITL.

But what does all this mean? Perhaps a finely-fitted regurgitation of unrelated, published quotes from a quarter century ago explains it all--2016 through present day? Or, perhaps, said quoting is narrative-pushing and vacuous, at best? Anyone--a Boss, perhaps--spare me a match?

https://youtu.be/gNKmmA6_oTQ


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Re: Brooklyn. And other States.

Post by FromHell on Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:02 pm

A flicker. For the interim: myth one, as it were.

Universal Recordings—subsidiary of Vivendi—holds the master rights to all—if any—of Red's recordings post-NYD ’96 because it (its predecessor) paid for the recordings. The master rights holder cut its exorbitant losses from Red's solo venture and forced what it thought profitable into the marketplace a decade ago.

A decade is no deterrent to propaganda pushers.
Nor is 15 original recordings in 27 years. And counting. For perspective, Jim Morrison was 27 when he went boots up. With a catalogue that makes Red's appear much as a laundry list.

Red and his south of America live-ins have not—and never had—power, legal or otherwise, to release any such recordings because he and they did not pay for said recordings. To this day, the most-frequented site in Forumland permits, despite definitive knowledge to the contrary, the perpetual posting of threads positing the propaganda that Red and his live-ins dictate the if, when and whether any such table scrap recordings, fictional or otherwise, to which Universal holds master rights, are packaged and released into the marketplace. Riddle me that.

Who benefits from permissively perpetuating and peddling such rank propaganda—particularly given that Red's solo venture is de facto defunct pushing now three years—save for scant mechanical royalties? Said propaganda-pushing continues unabated as Slash details partnership dealings on a near-weekly basis since July in an incessant stream of interviews. Which raises 'contracts,' er, I mean 'gag orders.' Or is it conflating myth and power pretense with actual indemnification agreements drafted by Slash's counsel and executed by media at the behest of Slash's management?

Which raises a question: does a flame flicker if no one sees it?
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Re: Brooklyn. And other States.

Post by Soulmonster on Tue Oct 02, 2018 11:56 pm

Can you prove any of this or is it just speculation?
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Re: Brooklyn. And other States.

Post by FromHell on Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:12 am

Proof? Ye shall have, though I suspect you already have. Paragraphs two through four are resuscitation of publicly-available fact. Five is foundation-laying. Six is begging a question.

Vivendi is a corp whose shares are publicly-traded and whose subsidiaries include Universal Music Group. And, interestingly, the Universal reboot of Geffen is in one of NYC's five boroughs. More on that, perhaps, later.

UMG has a storied history of fraud and conspiracy—from paying fines for price-fixing to bribing American terrestrial radio to present-day YT channel-wiping, the latter of which Forumland’s most-frequented site once—and recently—attributed to supposedly wayward and menacing associates of Red and his live-ins and hangers-on. How’d that resolution go? And oddly, perhaps, we have an untouched Hershey performance nearing 10 million views when seemingly the entirety of YT performances and ‘channels' have been wiped. Yet another Harrisburg-Brooklyn connection. But look quick. Change is all about us.

UMG purchased the debt (and assets) of its corp predecessor, said absorbed entity footed $13 million for Red (mostly not) recording his solo album, which it forced into the marketplace a decade ago by cutting its losses with Best Buy. Azoff owned Red at the ass-end of Red's solo debacle, hence Red settling and touring AFD-UYI with his for-hire musicians post-2010, but Azoff locksteps to Grainge. That's a condensed pecking order of Bosses, omitting that Slash and DMoney were Boss of Red for two decades as Remaining, Original Gn'R Partners. That's yet another mini-essay.

Master rights is an unassailable fact, as the others. One even the propagandist-in-chief acknowledged at China Exchange. The interwebs, and court pleadings, are rife with sourcing as to who footed recording costs for Red's solo venture post-NYD ’96. Fifteen songs in 27 years? Again, publicly-available fact. As, too, Jim Morrison going boots up at 27 and his catalogue dwarfing Red's in 27 years.

I direct your attention, as my attention has been directed, to page one of Forumland's most-frequented site. Today’s headlining thread on said site directs viewers to “face reality…” about Red and master rights so that each and every viewer of said thread continues to be conditioned that Red has complete influence over rights to releasing recorded material owned by UMG when he literally has none.

It likewise begs the question: since 2016, Original Gn'R Partnership assets have been unleashed to the tune of a quarter of a b-i-l-l-i-o-n in ticket gate alone—how and why has this occurred if Red and his live-ins ever controlled anything beyond (taking via duress but not brought within the tolling of SoL) of the trademark?
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Re: Brooklyn. And other States.

Post by FromHell on Wed Oct 03, 2018 2:07 am

Late word. Rumor has it that the Harrisburg (Hershey) performances from 2017 are the last remaining on the entirety of YT. I'll leave the veracity of that to Forumland's pseudo-investigatory unit. Though, on first blush, it appears as true as an American right angle. It ain't a Take 5 or a Hershey Kiss, but it'll do. In any event, my two sets of favorite eyes'll flatter me when, indeed, you find your wayward way to this off-shore thread.

“Memory believes before knowing remembers.”
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Re: Brooklyn. And other States.

Post by Uli on Thu Oct 04, 2018 6:15 am

@Soulmonster wrote:Can you prove any of this or is it just speculation?



This sounds like you understood at least half of it. I didn't, quite frankly. Maybe, if I did the "research" via other forums, I might know what he's on about; I would've done this a few years back, but nowadays I can't be bothered... Angel

The only "part" I think I understood, is that he believes that Universal do hold the rights to the recordings Axl & Co. (whoever was in GN'R at that point in time) have made in the past (i.e. after 1995).
In my opinion, this might be correct! It's been said years ago that Axl owed UMG for the year(s) spent in recording studio(s). I'd often wondered what the company thought about C.D. and its sales (it must've sold some more copies, e.g. when the band played stadiums in South America between 2009 and 2014) and whether they wanted "more", e.g. another album  ("two for the price of one") - or whether maybe Axl had to "pay back" via the money he earned with touring?
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Re: Brooklyn. And other States.

Post by Soulmonster on Thu Oct 04, 2018 7:53 pm

@Uli wrote:The only "part" I think I understood, is that he believes that Universal do hold the rights to the recordings Axl & Co. (whoever was in GN'R at that point in time) have made in the past (i.e. after 1995).
In my opinion, this might be correct! It's been said years ago that Axl owed UMG for the year(s) spent in recording studio(s). I'd often wondered what the company thought about C.D. and its sales (it must've sold some more copies, e.g. when the band played stadiums in South America between 2009 and 2014) and whether they wanted "more", e.g. another album  ("two for the price of one") - or whether maybe Axl had to "pay back" via the money he earned with touring?

It is not implausible to me at all that Universal owes the music created in that period. But it is still just speculation.
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Re: Brooklyn. And other States.

Post by Uli on Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:28 pm

Yeah, of course, it is speculation, same as happens in other forums and so on...

Which is why this sentence from our Hanson brothers groupie here leaves me puzzled:

@FromHell wrote:To this day, the most-frequented site in Forumland permits, despite definitive knowledge to the contrary, the perpetual posting of threads positing the propaganda that Red and his live-ins dictate the if, when and whether any such table scrap recordings, fictional or otherwise, to which Universal holds master rights, are packaged and released into the marketplace.  

Why is it your friggin' business what other forums do permit or not? Zip It
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Re: Brooklyn. And other States.

Post by Blackstar on Thu Oct 04, 2018 9:38 pm

Geffen/Interscope/Universal stopped financing the album in February 2004, according to this 2005 article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/06/arts/music/the-most-expensive-album-never-made.html

At the same time, the label released the Greatest Hits album, presumably as a way to recover the losses, planning also to release a follow-up later. Axl, Slash and Duff fought jointly against the GH release using the active 1992 partnership, but they lost in court.

After the label cut off the financing of CD, Axl signed a deal with Sanctuary Group (whose CEO was his then manager, Merck Mercuriades), with which he leased his publishing (songwriting) rights from the back catalogue and unreleased material for 20 years, in exchange for an amount estimated between $10 and $19 million:
http://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?pid=64091#p64091
So Axl's publishing company, Black Frog, was affiliated to Sanctuary. The rest of the details of the deal are unknown, for example the percentage of Axl's publishing royalties that would go to Sanctuary; but it seems, from later legal actions, that Axl continued owning the copyright of the compositions or part of it.
The deal was considered to be beneficial for both parties, since it would allow Axl to self-finance the album and Sanctuary, which wasn't doing well, to invigorate its budget with the expected revenues from Axl's publishing royalties.
Sanctuary, however, didn't make it, and 2 years after the deal, in 2007, it was sold to Universal; so Axl's publishing deal passed to Universal, which, of course, also happened to be his record label.
Universal later (in 2012) sold Sanctuary to BMG, but it seems that it kept Axl's deal (Black Frog appears now as a subsidiary of Universal).
In short, unless the terms of the publishing deal changed in the way, at least a big part of Axl's mechanical and sync royalties (i.e. his royalties as a composer/songwriter) go to Universal until 2025, and that includes future releases during this period.
But this, I believe, doesn't have anything to do with owning the master rights of the recordings (not the compositions). I think it's common practice in record deals for the label to keep the master rights of the recording for at least a period of time, so maybe it was in Axl's record deal anyway. And, as far as GnR goes, Universal still owns even the master rights of the recording of Appetite. Duff said in a recent interview (Let There Be Talk podcast) that the band/partnership will be able to obtain full control of the Appetite recordings in 2022, i.e. after 35 years:
2018.09.17 - Let There Be Talk podcast - Interview with Duff [AUDIO]

Irrespective of all the above: it's speculation, but I believe that with the Best Buy deal for CD, Universal recovered its losses from the financing of the album until 2004, so Axl doesn't owe them anything in that regard.
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Re: Brooklyn. And other States.

Post by Soulmonster on Thu Oct 04, 2018 10:08 pm

@Blackstar wrote:

Irrespective of all the above: it's speculation, but I believe that with the Best Buy deal for CD, Universal recovered its losses from the financing of the album until 2004, so Axl doesn't owe them anything in that regard.

This is what I have been thinking, too. But I would appreciate contrary evidence.
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Re: Brooklyn. And other States.

Post by Uli on Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:40 pm

Thanks @Blackstar for a reasonable post here!

What's wrong with this thread here, starts already with the title: "Brooklyn. And other States", what's that supposed to mean??? Doh!
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Re: Brooklyn. And other States.

Post by Soulmonster on Thu Oct 04, 2018 11:47 pm

It's all a bit confusing, yes Doh!
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Re: Brooklyn. And other States.

Post by FromHell on Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:19 am

@Uli wrote:
@Soulmonster wrote:Can you prove any of this or is it just speculation?




This sounds like you understood at least half of it. I didn't, quite frankly. Maybe, if I did the "research" via other forums, I might know what he's on about; I would've done this a few years back, but nowadays I can't be bothered... Angel

The only "part" I think I understood, is that he believes that Universal do hold the rights to the recordings Axl & Co. (whoever was in GN'R at that point in time) have made in the past (i.e. after 1995).
In my opinion, this might be correct! It's been said years ago that Axl owed UMG for the year(s) spent in recording studio(s). I'd often wondered what the company thought about C.D. and its sales (it must've sold some more copies, e.g. when the band played stadiums in South America between 2009 and 2014) and whether they wanted "more", e.g. another album  ("two for the price of one") - or whether maybe Axl had to "pay back" via the money he earned with touring?

The sole speculative matter in the present thread is which party(ies) possess basic comprehension of American property and contract law re rights to master recordings. I do. The responding posters do not; they therefore speculate and even reach for published--and red herring--quotes to appear both authoritative and knowledgeable.

The party who pays for recordings owns the master rights. Vivendi's (Universal) predecessor paid for Piano Man's recordings post NYD-'96, therefore, Vivendi owns said master rights to every/any note recorded by Red's solo band just as Geffen (now rebooted as a sub) owns the master rights to Original Gn'R partnership recordings--AFD through the 3/5 covers debacle. This unchallenged legal right, naturally, is the mechanism by which the semi-live Gn'R album was forced into the marketplace over the baseless legal claims brought by Original, Remaining Partners Slash and DMoney and Exiting Partner Red.

Quote that. Be mindful that my infrequent posts elsewhere (and those of my protege--some claim mentor) have been Martin Luther King'd (the notorious plagiarist with a national holiday) by everyone from RS to AN to even a respondent to this thread.

A jumping off point may well be my thread entitled, "Who's the Boss now, bitches" on another forum. Said thread was locked when the license holder wiltered to third party heat. Said thread is, nonetheless, informative provided that the reader can muster the patience to scroll the considerable repugnant posts that were a feckless attempt to interdict mine.
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Re: Brooklyn. And other States.

Post by FromHell on Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:38 am

@Uli wrote:Thanks @Blackstar for a reasonable post here!

What's wrong with this thread here, starts already with the title: "Brooklyn. And other States", what's that supposed to mean??? Doh!

It's but a matter of continuation from points and locations prior, provided, of course, those who could/should market in Forum indeed do so. As indicated, a jumping off point is the thread referenced in my prior post. Note the foundation-laying in said thread. Or bullshit-proofing, if you prefer. Said tact is employed in the present thread. The Harrisburg (Hershey Park) performance of the lead single from AFD from last summer is nearing 10 m-i-l-l-i-o-n views. How is it that that show, including other songs beyond the lead single from AFD, are literally the last few remaining songs on the entirety of YT outside the official channel? Riddle me that.
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Re: Brooklyn. And other States.

Post by FromHell on Fri Oct 05, 2018 5:43 am

@FromHell wrote:
@Uli wrote:Thanks @Blackstar for a reasonable post here!

What's wrong with this thread here, starts already with the title: "Brooklyn. And other States", what's that supposed to mean??? Doh!


It's but a matter of continuation from points and locations prior, provided, of course, those who could/should market in Forum indeed do so.  As indicated, a jumping off point is the thread referenced in my prior post.  Note the foundation-laying in said thread.  Or bullshit-proofing, if you prefer.  Said tact is employed in the present thread. The Harrisburg (Hershey Park) performance of the lead single from AFD from  last summer is nearing 10 m-i-l-l-i-o-n views.  How is it that that show, including other songs beyond the lead single from AFD, are literally the last few remaining songs on the entirety of YT outside the official channel?  Riddle me that.

"Brooklyn. And other States."

https://youtu.be/ib0Ni3t7QZE
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Re: Brooklyn. And other States.

Post by FromHell on Fri Oct 05, 2018 6:24 am

@Blackstar wrote:Geffen/Interscope/Universal stopped financing the album in February 2004, according to this 2005 article:
https://www.nytimes.com/2005/03/06/arts/music/the-most-expensive-album-never-made.html

At the same time, the label released the Greatest Hits album, presumably as a way to recover the losses, planning also to release a follow-up later. Axl, Slash and Duff fought jointly against the GH release using the active 1992 partnership, but they lost in court.

After the label cut off the financing of CD, Axl signed a deal with Sanctuary Group (whose CEO was his then manager, Merck Mercuriades), with which he leased his publishing (songwriting) rights from the back catalogue and unreleased material for 20 years, in exchange for an amount estimated between $10 and $19 million:
http://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?pid=64091#p64091
So Axl's publishing company, Black Frog, was affiliated to Sanctuary. The rest of the details of the deal are unknown, for example the percentage of Axl's publishing royalties that would go to Sanctuary; but it seems, from later legal actions, that Axl continued owning the copyright of the compositions or part of it.
The deal was considered to be beneficial for both parties, since it would allow Axl to self-finance the album and Sanctuary, which wasn't doing well, to invigorate its budget with the expected revenues from Axl's publishing royalties.
Sanctuary, however, didn't make it, and 2 years after the deal, in 2007, it was sold to Universal; so Axl's publishing deal passed to Universal, which, of course, also happened to be his record label.
Universal later (in 2012) sold Sanctuary to BMG, but it seems that it kept Axl's deal (Black Frog appears now as a subsidiary of Universal).
In short, unless the terms of the publishing deal changed in the way, at least a big part of Axl's mechanical and sync royalties (i.e. his royalties as a composer/songwriter) go to Universal until 2025, and that includes future releases during this period.
But this, I believe, doesn't have anything to do with owning the master rights of the recordings (not the compositions). I think it's common practice in record deals for the label to keep the master rights of the recording for at least a period of time, so maybe it was in Axl's record deal anyway. And, as far as GnR goes, Universal still owns even the master rights of the recording of Appetite. Duff said in a recent interview (Let There Be Talk podcast) that the band/partnership will be able to obtain full control of the Appetite recordings in 2022, i.e. after 35 years:
2018.09.17 - Let There Be Talk podcast - Interview with Duff [AUDIO]

Irrespective of all the above: it's speculation, but I believe that with the Best Buy deal for CD, Universal recovered its losses from the financing of the album until 2004, so Axl doesn't owe them anything in that regard.

Lighting tinder on an American forum earlier this summer, and, consequently, predicting both the Izzy wannabe in Brooklyn and Slash going full-on Boss to, among other matters, sneer at the 'contract,' 'gag order,' er, I mean 'NDA' propagandists, I read--in full--your attack on my boi, Mr. Urchin, on a censoring forum in summer 2017. I likewise was directed to, and skimmed, your subsequent repeated referencing of Mr. Urchin's posts in an effort to appear both knowledgeable and authoritative. Your vilification of Mr. Urchin in summer of 2017, considering your reliance upon the indisputable factual underpinning of his posts, is nothing short of stupefying. That, however, is irrelevant to the purpose of this thread. I'd, incidentally, refer you to him to resolve the egregious conduct.

Couching quotes from third parties as representative of your personal knowledge, as the citing you do in my quotation above, is disingenuous. To narrow your third-party quoting, the sole relevant matter is that DMoney acknowledged a legal fact: Geffen, now d/b/a Universal/ Vivendi owns master rights to the back catalogue, which is to say the master rights to the quarter of a b-i-l-l-I-o-n in gross ticket gate fueling the legal reunion of Remaining, Original Partners and the Exiting Partner on NYD '96.
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Re: Brooklyn. And other States.

Post by Blackstar on Fri Oct 05, 2018 7:58 am

@FromHell wrote:
Lighting tinder on an American forum earlier this summer, and, consequently, predicting both the Izzy wannabe in Brooklyn and Slash going full-on Boss to, among other matters, sneer at the 'contract,' 'gag order,' er, I mean 'NDA' propagandists, I read--in full--your attack on my boi, Mr. Urchin, on a censoring forum in summer 2017.  I likewise was directed to, and skimmed, your subsequent repeated referencing of Mr. Urchin's posts in an effort to appear both knowledgeable and authoritative.  Your vilification of Mr. Urchin in summer of 2017, considering your reliance upon the indisputable factual underpinning of his posts, is nothing short of stupefying.  That, however, is irrelevant to the purpose of this thread.  I'd, incidentally, refer you to him to resolve the egregious conduct.  



Now I remember. I remember that the former (?) "fellow poster" on mygnr didn't reply to the points of my "attack".
You two seem to  have a lot in common. Like drivel hidden behind loads of tropes and legal jargon; and a delusion of grandeur (real or just for the purpose of trolling - indifferent) that everybody references you or plagiarises you. Unless you wrote the NY Times article - but no, it's too coherent and readable.
I couldn't have referenced or plagiarised the posts of either of you even if I wanted to, because I can't plagiarise ramblings. What I post relies only on research and common sense.

Anyway, back on topic (so to speak). So Universal, as the record company, owns the master rights of Axl's recordings, which is basically what happens with every artist that has a contract with a record company. OK.

Oh and there are quite a few GnR performances still on youtube. Try here:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=guns+n+roses+full+show


Last edited by Blackstar on Sat Oct 06, 2018 10:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Brooklyn. And other States.

Post by Uli on Fri Oct 05, 2018 9:32 pm

Hm, that video says it's about truckers and rants... didn't watch it, seems to have no relevance at all to GNR or Brooklyn or this topic... Embarassed

@Blackstar wrote:Like drivel hidden behind loads of tropes and legal jargon

Ah okay, maybe that's why I didn't really get to the meaning behind sentences like:
It's but a matter of continuation from points and locations prior, provided, of course, those who could/should market in Forum indeed do so.
Doh!

Maybe it's just me (no native speaker and quite dumb, frankly), but I can imagine other forums closing topics for drivel like that and "unrelated" video links.
File that under "not my problem", though. Carefree

@Blackstar wrote:Anyway, back on topic (so to speak). So Universal, as the record company, owns the master rights of Axl's recordings, which is basically what happens with every artist that has a contract with a record company. OK.

Yeah, that's what I understood too (so far). Cool
As for the rest... I have no idea why youtube videos get taken down, maybe it's Universal/Vivendi, maybe someone else who looks into that, how should I know?

Speculation? Isn't that what many forums and their discussions live from? Of course if one takes it too far (trolling), thread might get closed/deleted. Again: not my problem. I don't really care much about other forums and their "politics".
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Re: Brooklyn. And other States.

Post by Johan on Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:59 pm

So, is this over yet?

#conspiracy #tinfoilhats
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Re: Brooklyn. And other States.

Post by Soulmonster on Wed Oct 10, 2018 3:38 am

@Johan wrote:So, is this over yet?

#conspiracy #tinfoilhats

It was!! Evil or Very Mad
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Re: Brooklyn. And other States.

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