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Notes

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Notes

Post by Blackstar on Wed Aug 29, 2018 11:58 am

I thought of creating this separate thread for (side)notes, suggestion and discussion on the history, so that they don't interfere with the flow in the main History thread.

.


Last edited by Blackstar on Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:26 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Notes

Post by Blackstar on Wed Aug 29, 2018 12:12 pm

I moved this post from the History thread
-----
@Soulmonster wrote:
Guns N' Roses and homosexuality
[...]

Axl: [...] The only people I deal with that are gay are [Cathouse DJ] Joseph Brooks and [DJ-about-town] Henry Peck, and I try not to offend them. Their sex life doesn’t come into any view of mine, ‘cause I’d just flip out. So it’s not like some kind of aggressive-against-gays shit. [...] [L.A. Weekly, May 1988].


Axl mentioned these two DJs in other interviews, crediting them for helping the band and passing its demos to Geffen (this could go to Chapter 15, I guess):

AXL: There are these two guys, Joseph and Henry, and they run a lot of the after hours clubs. They knew Izzy and they liked our band, so they told Tom Zutaut from Geffen about us. He met us and he liked us. Then he came to another show and he liked it a lot. [...] [Concert Shots, May 1986]

AXL: I think the “glam” label pretty much applies to people who didn’t necessarily want to be associated with punk or heavy metal or whatever. It gave them something to identify with. This scene particularly evolved out of the Fetish club, and the Glam Slam that evolved out of the Fetish. It’s Henry Peck’s fault! [L.A. Weekly, June 27, 1986]

Joseph Brooks is also thanked at the end of the "Don't Cry" video:

AXL: [...] Joseph was the guy who... You know, Don’t Cry was his favorite song, and he’s a DJ out here in Hollywood that keeps a lot of bands alive, and keeps people listening to them, you know, a bit alternative and a bit hard rock, and he works in all the hard rock clubs. He got our song Don’t Cry to the record company in the beginning, and I didn’t feel that anybody that he had helped had really thanked him enough. And I knew if I put it on there, it would be permanent; and if I didn’t put his last name – his name is Joseph Brooks – people would be like “Who is Joseph?” [Rockline radio interview, November 27, 1991]
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Re: Notes

Post by Soulmonster on Thu Aug 30, 2018 4:01 am

Good idea. I have started adding more info about Brooks and Peck, and will likely add more later, too. Just need to figure out which chapter it naturally belongs (about Izzy and his connection to Vinyl Fetish, about how them helped to connect the band to Geffen, or something else).

On a general note, I will also have to restructure the chapters again. Some of the chapters get too large and for ease of reading must be divided into new chapters. I will also have to add some chapters that I didn't think about when I first started on the outline of the history. I am almost finished with all interviews up to the start of 1988, all will continue with 1988 and 1989. This means that new chapters will be added to the end, and that additional info will be added to existing chapters. The history will not be finished until every single interview and article has been used as a source, all the way up to the present date. And as new interviews and information is made available, the history will be revised and corrected. It truly is a living thing but will hopefully be the most comprehensive source to the history of the band, and since it is so strictly based on what the band members (and people around them have said) hopefully not author-biased.
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Re: Notes

Post by Blackstar on Tue Sep 11, 2018 10:03 am

Regarding the Chicago sessions in 1989:

Steven says in his autobiography that they started in March 1989, but all the other sources (other autobiographies and articles of the time) state that they took place in the summer, most likely in June and July. I think Steven either means that March was when the band booked the rehearsal space for future use in the summer or he simply gets the timeline wrong.

There are other things in Steven's account of that period indicating that his memories are blurry and confused (which is not surprising considering his condition at the time). He says, for example, that November Rain was a "new song" Axl had when he finally showed up in Chicago, although everybody knows that NR wasn't new at all; and then he says that Civil War was a song written during the Mates rehearsals after Chicago, although by the others' accounts the music of it was written by 1988.

It's also odd, while he has everything else confused, that he claims he remembers when exactly Axl arrived in Chicago and  has even counted the days! He says that Axl showed up two days before the booking time for the rehearsal space ended, but it doesn't seem to be the case. By the other accounts it seems that Axl showed up in Chicago about a month later, i.e. around early July, and they all (minus Izzy) spent some more days -maybe a week or two- together there. Then it seems, according to Slash's and Duff's autobiographies, that Slash, Duff and Steven left and Axl stayed behind in Chicago. The article with the quotes from the Peruvian Shining Path leader, which were used in Civil War, is another indication that Axl was in Chicago in mid-July. Articles were often reproduced in many newspapers across the U.S., but, at least as far as the newspapers that are archived online go, I've found this particular article only in Chicago Tribune.

And despite the incident with Izzy's visit in Chicago described in Slash's and Duff's books, there are events indicating that Axl and Izzy spent some time together during that summer. On July 22 the two of them were in New York jamming with The Cult (gnrontour.com). Izzy also says in the interview with The Face (which was published in Jan. 1990, but from the content it seems that it took place in August 1989 when Izzy was in Europe) that "last week" he and Axl flew together from NY to Indiana.
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Re: Notes

Post by Soulmonster on Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:33 pm

I am trying to figure out when the Scrap Bar footage was recorded. I saw somewhere that someone thought it was from July 1989. That could fit, since, as you mention, gnrontour says Axl was in NYC at that time together with Izzy to jam with The Cult.
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Re: Notes

Post by Soulmonster on Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:58 pm

According to this site, the Scrap Bar jam happened on July 21 or 22: http://gnfnr.dk/2014/07/05/1989-07-2122-the-loft-scrap-bar-new-york-ny/
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Re: Notes

Post by Blackstar on Sat Oct 13, 2018 1:54 am

At about 16:20 min. mark of the 1989 MTV documentary it says July 1989, so the Axl-West Arkeen footage was definitely recorded in that month.
Alan Niven says in Mick Wall's 2016 book ("The last of the Giants") that Izzy, who was in a very bad shape then, went to New York while Axl was already there with West Arkeen:

The next he [Niven] heard Izzy had flown to New York to work with Axl on new material. Perhaps this was a good sign? ‘Perhaps he merely substituted one paranoia for another. Perhaps he decided that it was more important to prevent himself from being substituted by Arkeen. Perhaps he was sick of me knocking on his door. Either way, he was on a flight for Kennedy airport.'

So, since the Axl-Izzy jam with the Cult was on July 21-22, I think that the footage with West Arkeen was probably recorded some days earlier.

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Re: Notes

Post by Soulmonster on Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:14 am

I am looking into the timing of Steven's firing and Matt's hiring now. I haven't consulted many sources yet, but it already seems to be some confusion.

Steven was put on probation contract on March 28, 1990. Slash saw Matt Sorum with The Cult on April 3, 1990, and claimed in an interview that the only reason he didn't contact Matt directly after this show, to offer him the jobb, was because Matt was with The Cult at the time. This implies that in Slash's mind, Steven was out already on April 3, despite that he was highly likely still on probation (unless he had already managed to violate the contract -- which is of course possible).

Do we have any sources that shed light on this? Matt claims on his webpage that he was hired in the summer of 1990. I feel April is not really summer. So maybe Slash got it wrong, he saw Matt in early April, and was impressed, but hired him first much later, in June or July?
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Re: Notes

Post by Soulmonster on Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:17 am

Ah, in this quote Slash makes sense:

Matt I found after being seriously frustrated looking for a drummer. It was a crucial period where we had to get it together if we were gonna stay together. He was playing with the Cult. I saw him a few months before I called him. I had to sit down and go, "Okay, who's the best drummer I've seen, regardless of what band he's in?" I remembered being blown away by Matt with the Cult. So I thought, "I'll just give him a call. The Cult's off the road." I called him, and he came down and we hit it off right away. [Guitar For The Practising Musician, November 1992]
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Re: Notes

Post by Soulmonster on Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:19 am

We know Matt was in the band before July (because in the Guitar World interview with Slash published in October 1990, but obviously done before July, Slash says they have a new drummer), and he was hired "a few months" after the April 3 gig with The Cult, implies he was hired at some point in June 1990. It also means the Guitar World interview was done in June 1990, which also makes sense.
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Re: Notes

Post by Soulmonster on Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:43 am

I found this fantastic thread: http://www.mygnrforum.com/topic/219971-the-adler-vs-gnr-lawsuit-newspaper-reports-and-quotes/ Very Happy

In one of the sources it is said that the 28 March contract made Steven into an employee (and not a partner), and put him on a 30 day contract. I assume that contract wasn't re-newed, and that Steven was basically out of the band by the end April.

So Steven was out by the end of April. Slash had seen Matt play in early April, but didn't contact him until June (Steven was on probation at the time, but likely the band had already decided to replace him). Matt rehearsed and got the gig.
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Re: Notes

Post by Blackstar on Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:46 pm

Yeah, I think Steven was fired de facto before July, just the final paperwork was done then.

This interview was released in October 1990 but from what Slash says it's apparent that it was recorded before July:

What's going on with Guns N' Roses?

We've got a new drummer, named Matt Sorum. The press doesn't seem to know about it, which is cool. We've had problems for months with Steven [Adler], and it was holding up the band. Once I swallowed the reality that things had to change, I started scouting drummers. We obviously couldn't put an ad out -- we would 've had the Goon Squad knocking at our door. So we started auditioning people we heard about through the grapevine.

Unfortunately, we couldn't find anyone with the right attack or feel. I was really depressed over the situation for a while. Then one night, not too long ago, I went to see the Cult. I was at the sound board, and I was thinking, "This drummer is really awesome." I think Lars from Metallica told me about him, too. I was really, really impressed. He was literally one of the best rock drummers I had ever seen.

I initially didn't contact him because he was with the Cult. But I was at an all-time low and I knew that the Cult were off the road, so I decided to give Matt Sorum a call. I went through all these different sources to get in touch with him. Finally we hooked up, he came down to a rehearsal, and things immediately clicked. It was great and he was a great guy -- the chemistry worked.

Steven wasn't a technically great drummer, but we had been playing together for so long that we had a great collective feel. His meter, however, was always changing-up and down, up and down. So we had never really played with a great drummer. We didn't know what it would feel like. Not to say Steven isn't any good -- I don 't want to put him down -- but we never really played with anybody that was awesome. Duff and I started realizing how good Guns N' Roses could be after playing with some great drummers, like Kenny Aronoff from Iggy's band. We just looked at each other after playing with Kenny and went," Wow!" Then when Sorum came down and kicked ass, it confirmed things. The band sounds about 100 times better.

The difference is insane. At one point Duff thought it was his fault. We couldn't get a decent groove going, and we couldn't figure what was going wrong. Then we thought it was the whole band! You should've seen us! Y'know, long faces and shit ... [laughs]

What's the Guns N' Roses studio game plan?

We've written about 30 songs and we're going to try to go into the studio sometime in early July with our producer, Mike Clink. In a perfect world, we'll get it done as fast as possible.


(In the same interview, Slash also talks about Civil War and the Nobody's Child album, which was released in July, as something that was going to happen).

And in this interview from May 1991, Matt says that he started rehearsing with the band in April 1990 and that at first he was to do only the album:

"They didn't approach me again until the very last show I did with the Cult in April last year, so I had a sneaking suspicion something was going on. "The next day I got a call from Slash at my house. Originally I was just going to go down and do the album. Then about two weeks into rehearsal, I went up to Slash's house for a little barbecue and he asked me to join the band."

I found out that the last show of the Cult tour was on April 3. Maybe Matt condenses the time there and it was a few days later and not "the next day" that Slash called him, but it seems likely that he was rehearsing with the band even before Steven's probation contract ended, and they were thinking of doing the album with him, and then see about the tour.

The question for me is when the speedball incident with Erin happened. In his autobiography, Steven seems to place it after he was out, but it's not clear. My guess is that it happened after Steven's probation contract had ended, but at that time there was still a door open for him for the future; and then, when it happened, that door was closed.
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Re: Notes

Post by Blackstar on Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:27 pm

@Soulmonster wrote:We know Matt was in the band before July (because in the Guitar World interview with Slash published in October 1990, but obviously done before July, Slash says they have a new drummer), and he was hired "a few months" after the April 3 gig with The Cult, implies he was hired at some point in June 1990. It also means the Guitar World interview was done in June 1990, which also makes sense.


Ha, for some reason I missed this and I wrote too about the Slash October 1990 interview. But he doesn't say in that one that Matt was hired a few months after the last Cult gig. He mentions the few months in the 1992 interview, but he says few months after the show he had first seen Matt playing at, not after the last gig of the Cult tour. And then there's Matt, who says he was called "the next day" after the Cult show.
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Re: Notes

Post by Soulmonster on Sat Nov 10, 2018 10:20 pm

Everything taken into account, I think the band at first wanted to keep Steven but realized they needed someone to record the drum parts for the record and upcoming RIR. Steven was scared and strong armed and reduced to an employee. Nothing worked. Then the Hoosier Dome show and with the backdrop of the Erin speedball incident, it was decided to replace him permanently with Matt who was by then helping them out in the studio got the jobb. This happened in mid - April, while Steven was still on contact.
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Re: Notes

Post by Soulmonster on Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:09 pm

I seem to remember a quote from Axl where he would imply that his "Mr. Brownstone" speech helped push Slash into sobriety. But I can't find it. Anyone know where it is?
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Re: Notes

Post by Blackstar on Mon Nov 19, 2018 11:54 pm

@Soulmonster wrote:I seem to remember a quote from Axl where he would imply that his "Mr. Brownstone" speech helped push Slash into sobriety. But I can't find it. Anyone know where it is?

The only one that comes to mind right now is from the 1990 interview with Mick Wall (the book):

What about his little ‘retirement’ speech: was Axl actually serious, or was he, as his critics had claimed at the time, merely touting for more controversial headlines for himself and his band?

‘No.’ He was adamant. ‘That was definite and that was serious. I mean, I offered to go completely broke and back on the streets, ’cos it would have cost, like, an estimated $1.5 million to cancel the shows, OK? That means Axl’s broke, OK? Except what I’ve got tied up in Guns N’ Roses’ interests or whatever. But I didn’t want to do that because I wouldn’t want the band to have to pay for me cancelling the shows. I don’t want Duff to lose his house ’cos Axl cancelled the shows. I couldn’t live with that. But at the same time I’m not gonna be a part of watching them kill each other, just killing themselves off. It’s like, it came down to like, we tried every other angle of getting our shit back together and in the end it had to be done live. You know, everybody else was pissed at me but afterwards Slash’s mom came and shook my hand and so did his brother.’

But had it worked, though? Had the culprits - Slash, Izzy and Steven - actually done the right thing and cleaned up their acts?

He nodded his head vigorously. ‘It way worked, man! ’Cos Slash is fuckin’ on like a motherfucker right now. And the songs are coming together, they’re coming together real heavy. And I’ve written all these ballads, right? But Slash has written all these really heavy crunch rockers...’

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Re: Notes

Post by Soulmonster on Tue Nov 20, 2018 12:15 am

That's the one!
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Re: Notes

Post by Blackstar on Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:38 am

About the timeline of 1989:

@Soulmonster wrote:We know that Axl was in Chicago on July 20 [how?], so this fits with Axl's explanation.
http://www.a-4-d.com/t2847p60-the-history-of-guns-n-roses-in-their-own-words#12224

I don't know how we know this Smile We can assume that Axl had left Chicago and was already in New York on that date because he and Izzy jammed with The Cult the next night (July 21/22).

@Soulmonster wrote:OCTOBER 29, 1989 - IZZY GETS ARRESTED

On October 29, 1989, Izzy was arrested on a stop-over when flying from Indianapolis to Los Angeles [Arizona Republic, October 1989]
http://www.a-4-d.com/t2847p60-the-history-of-guns-n-roses-in-their-own-words#12281

Izzy was arrested on August 27 and released on bail two days later (Arizona Daily Star, August 31, 1989, Arizona Republic, October 18, 1989). His trial was on October 17 (a day before the first Rolling Stones concert).

----------------------

A rough timeline of the year, as figured out from the sources (and the work already done in the History thread):

January:
- Axl and his brother Stuart get arrested for public drunkenness and disorderly conduct (People, Feb. 20)
- The band is announced to participate at an AIDS benefit concert due in June (reports in LA Times and other newspapers).
- The band performs "Patience" at the American Music Awards with Don Henley replacing Steven (gnrontour.com) who was in rehab (Steven's autobiography).

February:
- Axl is in New York and Howard Stern calls him at his hotel (The Mayflower) on Feb. 6.
- The band shoots the video for Patience in LA (gnrontour.com)
- Duff and Steven do that silly live interview at Howard Stern's studio on Feb. 24, so they were in NY. Stern says he was the last person to talk to Axl. Duff says he "thinks" Axl is in NY. Duff also says he just got married (so maybe he dated Mandy since 1987 - he says in the interview he had met her before the band started touring Appetite - and married her in late '88-early '89).

March:
- The band is kicked out of the AIDS benefit concert because of the lyrics of One in a Million.

Sometime in spring, likely April:
- Izzy leaves LA and moves to Lafayette (he said in the Face Magazine interview, recorded in August, that he had moved to Indiana four months before). The reason for that will be clearer when quotes from later Izzy interviews, Slash's autobiography and Alan Niven interviews are included in the history.

April:
- Duff says on MTV (April 18) that the band might get into the studio in a month.
- Axl attends the premiere of the Depeche Mode 101 film in L.A.

Late May or early June:
- Slash, Duff and Steven go to Chicago, where the band had booked a rehearsal space, to write new material (there were rumours and sightings of Slash and Duff in the city since the early weeks of June, according to Chicago Tribune, June 26, and NME had the information too on June 24). Accounts vary as to how long the band stayed there and as to when Axl joined them. Axl said he arrived a month later (interview with Mick Wall, 1990), so likely in early July.

June:
- Steven and Cheryl get married in Las Vegas on June 7th. It's a question if that happened before the band went to Chicago or Steven left Chicago for the wedding and then went back.

July:
- It seems the band was still in Chicago until about mid-month (article containing the Civil War quote on July 9, a short report about Slash visiting a restaurant "recently" in Chicago Tribune, July 18). At some point Izzy drives there from Indiana and then drives right back. Slash leaves being angry at Axl; Duff and Steven follow.
- Mid to late July, Axl goes to New York with West Arkeen. They jam at the Scrap Bar and Axl does an interview with MTV.
- Izzy goes to New York too and he and Axl jam with The Cult on July 21/22 (gnrontour.com).

August:
- Axl and Izzy fly together from New York to Lafayette "with one lay-over flight" (Izzy, The Face, Oct. 1989). A later Axl quote, when included in the history, may suggest a potential reason for that.
- After that, Izzy goes to Europe, where he does the interview with The Face.
- Axl seems to go back to New York. On August 26, he guests at a Tom Petty concert (gnrontour.com)
- After Europe, Izzy goes back to Indiana. On August 27, he is on a flight from Indianapolis to L.A and gets arrested at the stop in Phoenix. He is released on bail two days later.

September:
- On Sept. 6 Axl and Izzy perform with Tom Petty at the MTV VMAs (gnrontour.com, LA Times, September 8). After the performance, the incident with Vince Neil happens.

October:
- The band shoots the video for It's so Easy at a show at the Cathouse (Oct. 10), where there's the incident between Axl and David Bowie.
- The band does two more warm-up shows (Oct. 11 & 13) for the Rolling Stones gigs.
- Oct. 17: Izzy's trial in Phoenix for the flight incident.
- Oct. 18-22: The four Rolling Stones gigs (Axl's Mr. Brownstone speech etc.)

December:
- The band rehearses new material at Mates studio (it's likely that the rehearsals had started in November).
- Axl and Izzy guest at three Rolling Stones shows in Atlantic City (Dec. 17-20)
- During the month, Axl, Slash and Duff make appearances at various club gigs and parties in L.A.

Sometime in 1989, most likely after the Stones gigs in October:
- Doug Goldstein takes Steven to rehab in Arizona (Slash's autobiography). Slash goes to join them, but first he does a lot of drugs, has hallucinations, destroys the hotel room and runs naked through the resort. With help from friends, he avoids jail (Musician Dec. 1990, Slash's autobiography).

Sometime in 1989:
- Axl goes to Paris and visits Jim Morrison's grave (Spin, Nov. 1990)
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